Question: anybody from (software / hardware) engineering company can actually get positive end-of-year evaluation from their managers while working less than 20h overtime avg with 45h being stated in their contract?
Background: I hear from HHs a lot that exactly their specific company that they're introducing me right now – there are "chances" that I can work down to 1h and pocket rest 44h of pre-paid overtime.
I clearly see their motivation that they need to match candidates with vacancies as soon as possible by any cost – period. But I'm already working in black enough company with 25h free overtime that is on practice being mandatory, so so far I'm refraining from falling in even deeper shitpit that I'm currently in.
Still, you never can be sure for 100% and these guys might be actually my best allies and companies they're introducing are hidden gems indeed… just making their accounting easier and giving free money to their staff? Or whatever else reason.
I know you can fight the system and don't do overtime work for free, but that requires tough guts to always fight with your manager and I failed to do it in my current job. So looking forward to some positive examples when you have 45h free overtime in your contract and usually you don't do it, yet anyways getting positive evaluation from your manager and salary increases every year – i.e. they're happy about you even if you don't do overtime they've paid you for.
by WakabaGyaru
25 comments
Not in engineering, but I have 40 hours みなし残業 and I’ve never been evaluated poorly for not doing it as long as I just do a good job on my work. Depends a lot on the company
Firstly ignore any westerner on here that insists your company can’t ask you to do overtime, because they will be wrong. Yes they can dock your performance if you refuse. They can’t obligate you to work beyond the legal limits (100h overtime in a single month, 45 hrs in a three month span etc etc.)
I don’t get paid any overtime being a manager. I’m happy with the work life balance at my job and don’t think you should weigh みなし残業 above all else. I’d more dig into the company culture and how Japanese it is. Even different departments can make a big difference in the same company. In fact HR breathes down on my neck if any of my reports do excessive overtime.
Anecdotal, but I was on 20h minashi, and rarely if ever exceeded it. Got the best evaluation in the department.
I’m definitely hearing many praises about hours worked in the company lately.. not sure if I like it but then again it might just be talk and unrelated to your eval
It really all boils down to the company. You can’t tell if a company is black and fully expects you to work all 45 hours of みなし残業 or not just by the existence of that clause.
I’ve worked in a company that also had 40 hours of minashi zangyo and I don’t think anyone ever worked all 40 hours of it. For the company, it was probably just a way to simplify their payroll calculations and also for the management to forecast/plan their budgeting and cashflow more easily. I rarely went above 15 hours, and never had bad appraisals before there.
Eh, my company have 45 hr minashi zangyou, the most i do is 20 hr, rarely
The replies here make me depressed. I have 25 hours on my contract and I rarely exceed 8. You guys are actually working that much unpaid overtime? I barely have enough time with my family as it is.
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding by OP of what this system means. Saying that you working overtime for free is not exactly correct. All IT companies that I have worked for have this deemed overtime system. In the offer letters, it says that you are compensated so much per month for any overtime you work up to a certain number of hours (regardless of if you work those overtime hours or not). Thus, your monthly salary is higher because the deemed overtime is added in.
Many companies will encourage people to get their work done in the normal working hours, but there are projects and deadlines that sometimes require overtime work.
I have 40 hours minashi but I very rarely do more than 0 unless there is an emergency.
The amount of minashi doesn’t mean you’ll actually be doing or often expected to do those hours. It seems pretty arbitrary and will come down to the company/team/manager’s culture. It also makes your base salary look “lower” in some specific calculations that exclude the minashi part.
On the other hand, Amazon’s contract has 70 hours and from my experiences with them, a lot of people are actually doing that.
it’s normal to ask during the interview how much OT people do on average. so even when the offer states 45h, you can then simply ask how often the employees hit those 45h. of course they could lie, but that would likely mean they’re losing you the moment you realize that 45h are expected all the time, which would be a big blunder on their part. so they probably will be honest.
but also keep in mind that headhunters are often shit anyway. recruiting is the industry for English teachers who managed to pass N3. and lots of Japanese recruiting agencies send their new grads to spam foreigners on Linkedin too. so if they contact you over Linkedin, check out their profiles and unless they have plenty of experience, just don’t even read the offer.
Yeah 45 seems like a lot… In my company the minashi are at 35/month, fully covered, but the average is less than 10. Some rare occasions require a bit of crunches, but it was more of a people kind of thing. Some never exceed 12h even when super busy.
Look probably online to what ex-employees have to say about the company
Make sure your base salary is high enough so that you feel comfortable with that system.
My company used to have 30 hours of minashi zangyo and I did almost none for years without it impacting my evaluation so your mileage may vary.
I have 45h minashi, and I’ve had it in my previous two roles as well. Doesn’t say anything about how much overtime you will actually be doing. Look at average overtime stats instead.
I think it’s pretty standard to include in the contract for a lot of companies in Japan.
For the last 10 years or so I have never seen a tech job not including about 40 hours minashi. And I have never done more than maybe 20 hours in a month, and that is during a particularly busy project period or something. It is just industry standard at this point to include it because it makes it easier to manage expenses.
My first company here had 40 hours of minashi zangyou and what they did is they switched our 5 day work week to 6 day work week so we also had to work on Saturdays too for the same wage
It’s normal for exempt , you manage your hours but if your project will demand overtime up to 45h of it is covered ( above will be extra paid ) regardless the 45h cover will be paid
Both companies I’ve worked at had 40h that I rarely ever got vaguely close to and never felt pressure to do overtime. It also creates a barrier for people that are doing nothing and just keep “working” for the purpose of getting overtime pay.
So it’s mostly just boilerplate to have consistent finances.
The black companies you want to worry about are the ones that ask you to sign out of work and then keep working off the books.
Engineer here. I have 45h built in my contract. I do 0h. U gotta do this from the beginning, start leaving at 18:30.
i guess it all depends on the company’s culture
I work as a system engineer for a gaishikei with 40h of minashi zangyou in my contract but so far i’ve never been forced to do them as long as all my tasks are completed within the deadline.
it never really affects my performance review as well
I have 45 hours minashi in engineering with discretionary working hours. In about 2 years now I have done about 10-20h overtime total in that time and got 3 raises in as many evaluations periods (I was hired below my actual level when I joined though)
With discretionary hours, I was told multiple times “it’s ok to go to kids graduation for half day as long as your weekly sprint tasks are done”, “logging in 1h in one day is enough to get the full salary for that day”, and I don’t even need to reach 40h average clocking time over any period. They really do look only at my output.
Minashi is not free money. Without Minashi you would get let’s say 7m + OT. With minashi you’re getting 5.5m base, 2m minashi, no OT. They lowered the base to put a lot into minashi. The offers you see include the minashi salary everywhere the same way bonuses were included in total comp before.
In a good company, minashi is basically discouraging everyone to do overtime, and just get the work done in normal hours. In a bad company, you’ll get assigned way too much work, guilt tripped into doing those minashi because they are paying them, etc…
As far as I can tell, minashi system is everywhere in IT companies, and can’t be seen as a red flag by itself.
HR often tries to cut down on employees who abuse the OT pay who aren’t actually working but staying in the office late just to rack up more money so companies have started already including a sum in your contract that goes towards any possible OT.
In my last company I had 20 hours of OT as part of the contract and I would only be paid if I exceeded 20 hours which I never did even during the most busy times so it’s really up to the company and how they implement the rules. If the company has a good rating on Glassdoor or one of those websites that rate companies then you should be good after vetting that they aren’t a black company.
I work in IT and my last company I had a 20 hour みなし残業 (minashi zangyo, fixed overtime) and when I exceeded it I got the rest paid. But it did not mean I had to use it and I and a lot did go home when the work day ended and usually did not use it at all. Of course there were times when the project needed some more work to do (before release, etc) I went over that time and had it all paid out.
At my current job I do have 40h of fixed overtime and I keep an eye on not use any of it. The whole year I probably only took 1-3h per month and that usually unintentionally when I was focused too much. Last year I had a project, where I exceeded the fixed overtime and it was paid out as it should. And it does not affect salary increases or other performances, as not the time worked is important it is the work output.
Look at the whole salary and check your 基本給 (kihonkyu, base salary) and how much the overtime is, if you are satisfied with the base salary alone see the extra overtime you might use or not as a nice bonus to have.
みなし残業 is super common.. and its actually to prevent people from working overtime as you dont get paid extra till you reach a threshold. Back in the days, salaryman would enjoy their coffee in the morning to make sure that they can stay behind to earn overtime pays.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. 固定残業代 is there so the company has a somewhat fixed human labor expense.
45h of fixed overtime pay doesn’t mean you will work 45h overtime.
Even when you only work 10h overtime, you’ll still get the 45h worth of money.
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