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by AutoModerator
15 comments
“grammar vs immersion for learning japaneese. what actually works faster for beginners??” って定期的に登場する質問なんだけども、上級学習者の人からしたら、色々あんだよね…
たとえば、
文法っていうけど、じゃあ、日本語ネイティブスピーカーが小学校や中学校でやってる学校文法って、日本語を外国語として学習している人々が、初級でわかるなんてことがそもそもあり得ると思ってますか?ってのが一個ある。
日本語は比較言語学ではSOVってのは、まあ、そうかもしらんけど、日本語それ自体を考えたら、それ役に立たなくて、そうではなくて、日本語はV。Vだけで完全な文。
その前に、あとからアドオンで格助詞(が、を、で、に、と…)がぶら下がることがある(格の語順は格並行構造なのでかなり自由。通常は既知情報→新情報)。そもそも主格は主語ではないし、対格は目的語ではない。そういう主語の人称や数や性が動詞をgovernするってことが日本語にはない。そうではなくて、述部から腕が出ていて、主格だの対格をつかんでいる(場合がある)。ま、一切の格はそもそも論で不要ちゃあ不要でVだけあればいいのだが。
さらにその外側に、さらにアドオンとして、ってことは命題ではなくて、ディスコースとして、取り立て助詞(は、も…)が、くっつく場合もある。必要ではない。但し間接疑問文なら普通は「は」は必要とか、否定文に「は」が共起しやすいとかはある。
述部のモーフ順はかなり固定してる(以下の表を参照)。だから学校文法つーたら、まあ、どこを集中してみてるのか?日本語の文法の本質はなんなのかつーたら述部である。
じゃあ、学校文法、外国語として日本語を学習する初学者が先ずマスターするなんてことはできるのか?先ず、学校文法を完璧にわかってから、しかるのちに、話してみる…ってそれ現実的なの?っていうと、それ、ありえないでしょう。
|**項目**|**学校文法**|日本語教育文法|
|:-|:-|:-|
||||
|凍ら|動詞|stem|
|せ|助動詞(使役)|causative|
|て|接続助詞|-テイル aspect|
|い|補助動詞|ditto|
|た|助動詞(過去)|-タ tense|
|だろ|助動詞「だ」未然形|-ダロウ conjecture|
|う|助動詞(推量)|ditto|
あるあるな質問として、日本語の動詞、形容詞の全活用表を作りたい…っていうコメントも定期的に現れるけど、上記、じゃあ何フォームなのよ…っていう。「せていただろう」形ですかね。つまり、そんなん、無限に近い。つまり、日本語学校だったら、「気にしなくていいです」である。
学校文法を完璧にマスターしてから、しかるのちに、初めて話し始める…なんてことをしようとしたら、一生涯、日本語でなんか話し出すことはありえないと言っても過言ではない。
(ってことは、めっちゃ間違っていいので、日本語学校でペアになって、会話練習しとくってのは、実はめちゃめちゃに大事。学校にみんないけるわけではないので、そこ、どうやって練習するのかは、難しいちゃあ難しいが。)
だから、多読を継続するのにつどつど必要不可欠な、最小限の文法だけは学ぶべきであって、あくまでも、つどつど、多読を可能にするだけの日本語教育文法だけを学ぶべき。
ってことは、日本語学校で、たとえば、「名詞+ダ」の「ダ」の品詞は何でしょうか?Copulaですか?に対して、「そんなことは一生涯、知らなくていいです」と言ってもらうってのが、実は大事。
なにを、知らなくていいのか、を、教えてもらえるのが、日本語学校。
文法なら文法を完璧に…は、ありえないってことを言ってくれるのが日本語学校。
多読するのに、最低限必要なセンテンスパターンを、実際にペアで話してみましょうってのをやってる。
**「理解」と「運用」を最初から分けて鍛えている。**
* 多くの人は理解できるようになってから話そうとする
* でも日本語は**それだと一生しゃべれない**
Does anyone have a comprehensive Japanese vocabulary list for politics/diplomacy?
[deleted]
u/morgawr_ Sorry, I moved my original comment to reply to DokugoHikken’s thread and didn’t realize you’d already replied. I saw your feedback in your profile — thanks for the honesty.
You make a fair point that learning readings is fundamental. KanjiGloss isn’t meant to replace that. My main motivation was actually about grammar, not kanji — Japanese structures meaning through particles and conjugations in a way that’s unique, and I wanted to give beginners a way to *feel* that structure by reading real sentences, even before they’ve learned kanji readings. Once the kanji meanings are just there, learners can focus on how は, が, すれば, ですが actually work — and that sense is hard to get from textbooks alone.
Think of it as training wheels, not a permanent replacement. The README discusses removing glosses as learners progress.
Your concern about learners getting stuck on English keywords is legitimate and something I want to address. Appreciate the feedback.
https://preview.redd.it/yjyk7jytddrg1.png?width=1129&format=png&auto=webp&s=05e7b3af8441e1431ccfdc4bde1cb356ff3aa449
I was reading this article earlier, and I found the 3rd sentence a bit hard to parse and understand. I used some translation tools and it said something like this is the highest price drop ever before, about 13 yen, compared to previous weeks. Is this correct?
I can see the logic after seeing the translation, but before that, I think I was misled by 高かった, thinking it was the most expensive, only to follow by 下がりました. I’m still not sure what 高かった is describing, is it 前の週に比べて?I was looking for a noun or clause but I don’t think any of those are?
【紅莉栖】「あんたを見てると、そうとも思えないけど。むしろ私の方がよっぽど有意義な過ごし方してると思う」
助手め、言うようになったではないか。
is 言うようになった an expression?
Teaching ChatGPT Japanese English.
[https://youtube.com/shorts/H8hZuuuMSv0?si=_iEDVU1A8J2kZCba](https://youtube.com/shorts/H8hZuuuMSv0?si=_iEDVU1A8J2kZCba)
I’m not finding a direct or clear answer on “Can you take a picture for us?”
I’ve seen “Shashin Totte morate mo ii desu ka?” Translated as such, but also as asking to take a picture OF someone. I want to be able to ask someone politely to take a picture of me and my husband without them in the photo lol. Also. Another unrelated question, how does one say “how do you say that in Japanese?” Thanks so much for insight.
I learned that お前 is a rude or rough way of saying あなた・君。like in vulgar senses, rough, angry, etc. So why do I hear it so much in anime, even when people are talking to someone close? I suppose also お前さん would be different. Does さん “cancel out” the roughness in a sense and turn it into a neutral thing? I guess the overall use of お前 confuses me.
he’s saying that they left the machine on the floor cause of the chance of an incident happening again and destroying the table again.
放電現象を起こすのに成功すると再びこの前のようになる恐れがあるため、不便ではあるが床に置きっぱなしにしているのだ。
whats the meaning or grammar usage of のに in this case? in my mind it sounds like “since” “because” but I can’t find a grammar explanation that fits it.
**綿**が詰められている中から、小さく折りたたまれた紙が出てくる。
Do I read 綿 as めん or わた? Both mean cotton in my dictionary. What’s the difference?
Hey currently I have started the learning, and doing kaishi deck on anki though I am around 100-200 cards but how to make sure that if I see those card somewhere other than anki than I remember them do, like they are confusing and takes guess if not in anki.
Also what should I be doing together with this. To progress further.
Hey, I just started pracitising output more often and I’m trying to include at least some of the new grammar I came across today. Just wanted to know, does this sound okay/natural to you guys? I don’t feel very confident about it.
今日は泳ぎに行った。後で料理をしなきゃ。9時半ごろに寝る。平日には毎日のように9時半ごろだ。週末は大体10時。
How exactly does cutesy-style talk work in Japanese? Or potentially more of a fun-whimsy style of communication. When I talk to some of my friends, I like to talk more like that, “I’m eepy,” “shut up stinky >:3,” stuff like that. Basically, how do I change the sentences or words I’m speaking to fit the vibes of :3 and >:3
sorry if this gets asked a lot. ive been unemployed for a while and heard the japanese job market is better. i saw jlpt registerations are open after some research, however i didnt know that they fill out quickly. its almost april now and the test is in july. the only seat available is for n3 in a different city. Should I register for it, being a complete beginner? I can spend an hour a day on it. 2 hours might be my ceiling. I wanted to apply for meti internship in may as well
let me know if im overthinking this and maybe i should just start with a class or a book first then take the test in December. tho ive also heard even n3 isnt enough to get a job. Thank you so much.
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